| 
04-11-2008
| | | !@#$%^&*
Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: KC Posts: 1,032
| 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitzel  Competitive (the way I used it) is a relative term, because everything has some competitive aspect to it.
My personal definition of a competitive game is one where I can play to win and have fun. The MLG community's definition (who I wrote this for originally) is one that has a high skill cap, learning curve, depth, and activity.
Halo 3 is not a competitive game. I say this with extreme confidence. There are too many factors in it that promote randomness, lack of difficulty, stalling, lack of options, forced outcomes, etc to be skillful. It's on the circuit right now because of that last bullet - activity. And it's at an extreme.
Generally, every game has a learning curve. Once you've passed this curve, the game's competitiveness becomes clear. The game can range from shallow to deep, and that has an overwhelming effect on the metagame. Halo 3's design to appeal to the casual gamer as opposed to the serious one pushes it far into the shallow end.
As for progression, that's my whole point. The majority isn't going to buy a game that doesn't progress in graphics and gimmicks, unless it's a game that they don't expect and demand to progress in graphics and gimmicks. My point is that an Arcade game is the only kind of game right now that can easily be competitive and mainstream at the same time by default. | Thank you. I completely agree with your definition of a competitive game, I'm just not sure if an arcade game would catch on as being "the next big thing". | 
| | |
04-11-2008
| | | Who?
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 620
|
It wouldn't even have to be huge as long as people are willing to watch it, rather than participate. After all what matters to MLG and other tournament providers is the potential audience. | |
| | |
04-11-2008
| | | Baaahh!
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ottawa Fav 360 Game: Halo 3, Shadowrun, CoD4 Posts: 2,176
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitzel First off I want to say that I don't think the main weapon in Shadowrun is the SMG. In competitive play, team Rifling means a lot. SMG spray is rampant in pubs, but SR pubs and competitive SR matches may as well be two different games.
I know this kinda eludes your point, but that conversation we had no too long ago about vertical teleports and how to approach and defend with them is a big indicator of Shadowrun's depth and skill, and that's just one example. You don't have conversations like that about Halo 3 simply because there's nothing to talk about.
Halo 3 requires an insignificant amount of individual skill, both mental and technical. 1v1 situations have very limited options and are forced, because everything takes so long to do. If the other guy gets the first shot, you either die or run away. Halo 2 took relatively little individual skill, I don't see how you could say Halo 3 takes more when there are even less options and every action takes longer to preform.
All that matters in Halo 3 is teamwork. That itself is limited by dull map design where options are also limited and forced upon the player. Besides that, there is little reason to flow around the map because the weapons aren't balanced in a way to allow spawn objectives a 'la Halo 1. Spawn times are long. Setups dominate. It's like PDZ, but without having to worry about armor. In the end, Halo 3 takes basic teamwork skill simply because it's a shooter, but that's a blanket statement and doesn't give it any credit of being any more competitive than any other shooter.
Yes, Shadowrun has random elements to it, but those elements can be avoided and/or countered, without resorting to teamwork. That isn't true of Halo 3.
I believe it was major nelson I real that number from? It was around 50%.. but now that I think about it I don't think it was 60. It was an even number though I remember if numbers are even or odd. The article basically said that the number is absurdly high and was bragging about XBL Arcade's success. I'll try to find it.
Either way, I think we're beating a long-dead horse (Halo being dumbed down). I want to discuss the possibilities of a competitive Arcade catching on vs a normal competitive game catching on, because I feel that at this point in the market, an Arcade game has much, much higher chances. |
Considering this is all opinion and I know you (as I) won't be able to change each others mind I'll let this drop. But I just want to say in the end the number of players that play Halo competitively speaks for itself, and that if the game requires as little skill as you say... then I don't see how the same few people can always come out on top. I'm done. 
And the Major Nelson thing I really doubt is true. Major Nelson is nothing more then PR. I remember hearing him talk about increasing the size of friends lists (said no need as the average person has less then 30) and trying to justify everything Microsoft does in a positive light.
I would assume that the number would be much closer to that of a incentive based mmo when you compaire those who play for free vs everyone else (less then 1%). Even a 50% attach rate doesn't make sense...
And would this arcade game would be 3d right?
__________________  | |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | If thats what you're into
Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Utah Fav 360 Game: Shadowrun,Halo 3 Posts: 1,666
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitzel
Halo 3 is not a competitive game. I say this with extreme confidence. There are too many factors in it that promote randomness, lack of difficulty, stalling, lack of options, forced outcomes, etc to be skillful.
| I think halo takes more skill then you think. If it cant be skillful......why has str8 rippin been dominating so bad? Why can someone be in the zone and out br everything he sees(even against top pros)? With forge and all the custom options in halo 3 you can take most of the random random things. Sure there is br spread(a lot better on lan), the melee screws up sometimes(better on lan), and bullet registration doesnt work all the time(sooooo much better on lan)....but shadowrun has problems like that too.
I got another account and won my first 180 games(it was double team...and we would win by an average of 25-3). Then my same double team partner and me played two pros in some mlg gametypes(2v2). We got crushed. I could kill one on a consistent basis....but the other i probably never out bred(and i was host). So just by that there definitely a skill difference.
With halo you have to be set up right,time weapon/powerup spawns, control spawns, aim really well, and communicate to excel. That is competitive.
Shadowrun is another type of competitive shooter. Its more about outsmarting and countering the other team(because of all the magic/tech). It is a great competitive shooter. Both halo and shadowrun are good competitive shooters...i dont see how one isnt and the other is.
__________________ Thanks Angel! Thanks Irken! Thanks Rico! | |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | Stuck in a Portal
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Florida Fav 360 Game: CoD4 Posts: 662
|
Honestly I think Halo 3 is competitive, but it seems less competitive than halo 2. I liked Shadowrun, but I never got into it competitively. I think after Meadowlands people will start getting more and more competitive in Halo 3, after seeing some matches.
__________________ Aim - I KorBeN I
Gt - I KorBeN I Games to own 2008:
Code: Fable 2 - 10/15/08
Halo Wars - 2008
Gears Of War 2 - 11/07/08
Dead Space - 10/31/08
Resident Evil 5 - 03/13/09
Rock Band 2 - 09/30/08
| |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | Jack's smirking revenge
Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: t3h 740 Fav 360 Game: SR, GoW, H3, COD4 Posts: 2,530
|
Seriously, Hitzel, just get a bunch of people together and start making games already. You obviously think about it enough XD
Anyways, I agree and disagree with the Arcade game idea. The reason why H3 has so many "competitive" players is because it has a massive player-base to draw from, many of whom were hooked by H1 and H2. Likewise, Shadowrun has fewer "competitive" players because it has smaller player-base. This is for three main reasons, IMO. First, Shadowrun has no single player, which cuts the number of potential players in half from the get-go because users without XBL simply had no reason to buy the game. Second, Shadowrun differentiated far too much from its concept source (the SR PnP). I was surprised to find how many people were turned off by this; it's really unfortunate. And third, because Shadowrun is a "thinking man's game" by nature in comparison with other shooters. Games based around thought processes are much harder to get into, and, very inacessible to a large number of would-be "competitive" gamers. Once again, unfortunate. My point here is this: the main obstacle you will face in the development of a competitive Arcade game is gaining an adequate level of popularity for the game to lure in the audiences and competitive gamers required for the game to be successful. There two things you MUST do in order to accomplish this. First, market. I'm talking viral marketing, word-of-mouth, legit ads, and everything else. For a game like this, you could build alot of hype "underground", but you'd still have to make a considerable effort to do so successfully. Second, make the game fun to watch. Most games (read: FPS games) simply aren't that fun to watch. Yes, there are MOMENTS that are fun to watch, but as a whole they tend to get boring. If you can keep gameplay away from that, then you'll have a much better chance of success within the competitive community.
BTW, it is probably possible to create a game like this with the user-created content tools that MS has provided for the underground/hobbyist game developers out there. I can't remember the name at the moment, but I think I have a trial on my comp somewhere.
There was something else I had to say, but I can't remember what it was XD So I'll end this WoT right here.
__________________ 
"This city deserves a better class of criminal." Waiting for APB | |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | My cpu pwns
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Michigan Fav 360 Game: Halo 3 Posts: 260
|
i hates shadowruns | |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | Baaahh!
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ottawa Fav 360 Game: Halo 3, Shadowrun, CoD4 Posts: 2,176
|
I think the main problem with the way Shadowrun was handled was the pricing and distribution. I firmly believe that if Shadowrun was 30$ and released both in retail and for download over xbox live that it would have been much more successful. I really think that the game would have been a huge success and would have been a must buy in many peoples eyes.
I still hold hope that in the future Microsoft will do this with Shadowrun to kickstart whatever need downloadable program they have.
__________________ | |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | !@#$%^&*
Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: KC Posts: 1,032
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare I think the main problem with the way Shadowrun was handled was the pricing and distribution. I firmly believe that if Shadowrun was 30$ and released both in retail and for download over xbox live that it would have been much more successful. I really think that the game would have been a huge success and would have been a must buy in many peoples eyes.
I still hold hope that in the future Microsoft will do this with Shadowrun to kickstart whatever need downloadable program they have. | I never really got into Shadowrun mostly because of the price, but if it was $30 instead of $60 I'm almost positive I would have bought it. | |
| | |
04-12-2008
| | | Jack's smirking revenge
Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: t3h 740 Fav 360 Game: SR, GoW, H3, COD4 Posts: 2,530
|
I just realized that we completely derailed this thread XD
It's become a SR vs. H3 thread.
__________________
"This city deserves a better class of criminal." Waiting for APB | |
| | |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | | | | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:10 PM.
|
BMX Park Champion!
